Hello again. Since I started writing this column I look at things somewhat differently, considering sides and options I wouldn’t otherwise give a second thought to. I try to present things from all perspectives even if I can’t be exactly impartial; we all have our own opinion and preference about things, don’t we?
Age of Conan: The Rise of the Godslayer has a component of grind, though not everyone will agree on which part of the content is just Grind or Fun…
Every game can be seen as something fun and dynamic or the most boring “grind” ever experienced. The same game will be perceived by different gamers through their own likings and preferences. That challenge is what MMOs have to deal with.
All of you probably have thought on occasion, “Why does that exist in this game? Why not focus completely on this other facet of the game instead, and not split efforts and resources?” The answer is, in my humble opinion, really simple: because anything can become tedious after a while of repeating it. Well, almost anything I guess. *wink*
In a sense, everything in an MMORPG is a form of grind. Some people find questing boring, some people find PvPing not only boring but futile, some others find factions and the repetitive process of raising them, simply stupid. Everything, from raiding to crafting harvesting, building a city or collecting alts of maximum level is, or can be, a grind. It does have a purpose of course, a goal for each one. It is just a matter of finding the grind that goes with your style. And here is where variety plays a key role, offering the chance to try something different when the claws of the monster of boredom threaten to ruin our enjoyment.
I am not a PvPer; probably because I am more competitive than I like to admit and I am not as good at it as I would like to be. But that doesn’t mean I do not do PvP at all. Recently, I decided to see for myself just how much truth was in the statement about Bori Shrines. On the PvE-RP server that I play on, it has been renamed as Bori’ing. I can only imagine the hell (sorry PvPers, I am biased) it must be in a more populated server, knowing as I know now, that a single game can disrupt and ruin the effort of five others focusing on the altars.
Let me explain, for those of you not familiar with the mechanics of Bori. In the Cimmerian End (CE) of the Border Kingdoms, there are three flags at three camps that can be claimed by anyone (by clicking on the flags.) After some moments the flag is captured by the guild of the character who claimed it. A flag being captured can be contested, that is, someone else from a different guild clicks on it and tries to capture it for their own.
Once the flag has been captured an altar will appear nearby, and there is where the rare resources (aka greens) from the nodes in CE can be “sacrificed” to Bori. Each green sacrificed will add an amount of “units” to the sacrifice; the number varying according to the value of each. Tier 1 resources will add a very low amount, Tier 2 ones higher amount of units while the Tier 3 resources are the most valuable of them all.
When the altar reaches the sum of 666 units Bori will be pleased and each member of the group will receive Marks of Conquest, 9000 points of Glory, PvP experience and also Prowess and Mastery experience (Alternative Advancement points or AA); PvP and Prowess varying according to potions, Volumes of Carnage or possible buffs modifying its gain percentage.
So, basically, what one does at Bori is… yes, you guessed right, mine and chop. In a word: Gathering. Which, in itself, is not really exciting though highly effective towards AA and renown for the guild. This, of course, changes if/when someone enters the area and fights for the right to gather the coveted resources; which is most possibly what developers had in mind when designing and implementing this part of the content.
Do not think I’m criticizing the concept of PvP though. Not at all because, analyzing raiding, there are many arguments to consider it just another form of grind. Let’s admit it, going week after week to the same instances, killing the same bosses for months to get a set of armor is grinding. Sometimes even following tight schedules to adapt our real life, in order to attend all the raid runs, which can become a second job; committing to spend 4 or 5 hours, twice or three times a week is not something everyone is willing to do.
Another example is Housing. Housing is a feature demanded in AoC for many subscribers. Since there is no housing in this game, I will use the systems of other games, from building your own house from scratch, to craft the furniture or get nice items and trophies to place in your house, everything is grind.
Yes, my friends, we all grind, with different goals, for different objectives and in different varied manners. The key is finding the sort of grind that meets our requirements and satisfies our gaming needs of the moment, because the fun we get from it makes the difference from getting bored from wanting to stay just a little bit longer to finish whatever we started.
So, next time do not think so lightly about aspects of the game you don’t enjoy so much, for they could prove the source of fun if you get bored of the one you’re enjoying so much now. And if you disagree, please let your own experience or opinion on the comments; everyone is most welcome.
In a sense, everything in an MMORPG is a form of grind.
Look no, this is the terrible blending of concepts until there is nothing bad and everythings fine in that tense, taught faced way that someone does when their covering something up, even from themselves.
Look, say I want X, but I have to do Y five hundred times to get it. And it got real boring at one hundred times.
Okay, that’s where I’m forced to do Y if I want X.
Now imagine this and contrast it – that each day you do Y only say five times, and it’ll count as having done it fifty times. AND if you want you can keep doing Y, but as you can see your not forced too – if you can wait, you can get to 500 Y simply by doing Y 50 times over 10 days, instead of having to do Y 500 times.
So you can keep doing Y and get there quicker, but it’s your choice, rather than your forced to do it if you want X.
So no, not everything is a form of grind and therefore grind is fine and everythings hunky dory.
I believe I heard that AOC actually gives a level every five days of subscription, or some arrangement. This is actually exactly the sort of thing I’m talking about.
February 21st, 2011 at 10:48 pmQuote
@Callan S.
I think you are missing the point of that the writer is trying to make in the spirit of the article. Your quote of that one single line is taking it out of the context of the article as a whole and I think that especially on the topic of grinding –context- is paramount. And she is by no means saying that grinding is bad, but simply that it is the reality of playing an MMO. There is a difference.
Consider the following (more or less in the context of your X and Y type example):
You do not -have- to get out of Tortage. You can play there all you like if you do not ever wish to see the rest of the game. But if you -do- want to see the rest of the game content, you -have- to grind your way out of Tortage for at least 6 to 8 (or likely more) hours. There is no way around it (not even with the offline level system). All good perhaps on your first character when you are new to the game and wowed by the scenery but by the time you are on your third or fourth or…eleventh toon, this is as grind as it gets. Of course, you do not have to do it in 6 or 8 our however many hours straight. But you –have- to do it at some point if you want to get out of Tortage.
Once you are out of Tortage the same applies again – there are some aspects of the game you will never get to see unless you reach the minimum level to a) access or b) survive the area. Yes, you could now start applying your offline levels but at one allocated every four days of subscription, do you really -want- to wait the 240 days or 8…yes, 8 months it will take to get your character to level 80? And that is only for one character. Add to that the already stated fact that depending on character level many areas in the game are inaccessible and much of the gear unusable and you are faced with the reality that really, the only way to enjoy the game is to put up with the grind.
Want a guild city? Grind. Fair enough, you could always join a guild with an already advanced city, but -someone- had to do the grinding to get it to that level – and it might even be -you-.
Want epic gear? Grind. Grind raids, grind faction.
Want decent non-epic gear or gear that look nice for RP? Grind. Grind instances and grind regular play zones *has haunted forest flashbacks*.
Hell, even if you are only in the game for RP and do not care about raids, instances, PvP or anything but RP, you still need to grind as:
a) you will need in-game money for RP
b) you will need some gear to use for RP (dice, coins, RP clothing)
c) you would want access to some instances where you can RP and not aggro every mob higher than level 5.
d) special emotes (cultural dances) and other RP-facilitating items can only be found through special quests that require guild cities and renown and a minimum level, all of which can only be attained through grinding.
So, are you forced to do -anything- in the game? No. Do you -have- to do anything or everything in the game 1 millions times in a single sitting? No. But to get anywhere in the game in your actual lifetime there are some things that you simply cannot experience without the grind that accompanies it. Yes, you can do a bit and walk away, come back and do a bit more and walk away, etc. But that is just stealth grinding. And it is still grinding.
So no, not everything in the game is an -obvious- grind, but you only get what you pay for if you accept it and grind. Nobody is standing with a gun to your head making you do anything in the game. But if you are not trying to achieve anything in the game, then why are you playing it?
I do not know how you define grinding but anything you have to do again and again and again, regardless of how much you space it out or how relaxed n approach you take to it is still a grind. It is not bad, but it is what it is. That is what the writer is trying to say and it does apply to every single MMO I have ever played.
*gets on chain gang and starts to sing while breaking rocks with a pick*
Oooooh, Mississippiiiiii! Maaaaaaster’s got me workiiiiiing!
February 23rd, 2011 at 6:44 amQuote
Timotheuz,
I’ll say upfront I wasn’t specifically talking about AOC. I’m talking about potentialy mmorpg designs for the future, and just mentioned AOC’s level thing as a nod toward the idea mmorpgs are already evolving toward what I’m mentioning.
Second, I don’t think at all she’s saying grinding is bad – I think she’s saying the opposite. And I’m arguing against that!
Third, your putting up the very issue I’m arguing against and warning about (as in a health warning), where somehow you’ve started to blend both the awful and what you like into one thing, for some sort of ‘you have to grind, therefore you must like it’ principle.
The fact is in real life there are some things I like to do a few times a day or week, but not a thousand times. I like drinking a few beers, but not thousands a day, or thousands a week. If I like to drink a few beers, are you going to call that grinding?
I like to play a few matchs of quake live, but not hundreds of matches in one day. Am I grinding for playing just while I’m happy to play them?
See, this is what worries me is how you and possibly Sema have ceased to do an activity JUST while you have fun, because you’ve started to make up this rationale in your head that if your not trying to achieve anything in game, why play it? And if it’s about grinding and your playing it, your going to grind. I knew your arguement before you gave it.
The fact is, it’s like your drinking multiple beers in a row, not because you enjoy them anymore, but because you want the thousand bottle cap achievement. But you’ll tell me why buy the beer if you don’t want the thousand bottle cap achievement?
Because beer can be enjoyed by itself. As long as you haven’t had so many that you’ve ceased to enjoy them anymore. It’s all too possible to enjoy games from moment to moment, just playing for as long as it’s fun and that’s it. But here you are, asking me why am I playing the game if I’m not prepared to not have fun right now?
(On a side note I’m learning how to write text based browser games at the moment – so I’m working on this stuff at the moment)
Fourth, I wouldn’t bother giving a health warning if I didn’t care about you all as people, so even if you disagree, please don’t assume an ill intent on my part here in saying this. I’m writing it all with the mindset I could be utterly wrong on the matter, not as if I know best or anything. I am simply worried and decided not to be silent.
February 24th, 2011 at 2:20 amQuote
Thanks for your comments, each one is welcomed and appreciated.
I would like to clear up that I’m not saying grind is good. In fact is one of the reasons people leaves a game. But sometimes those same gamers perceive as grind only the areas of the game they don’t like much and complain about having to repeat the same quest x times, but don’t complain about having to raid the same instance same x times.
I know people that enjoys Khitai and the faction system, whereas, personally, I still haven’t been able to bring myself to raise even one single faction with any of my lvl 80 characters (4 so far).
And I’m not saying that if you don’t have a goal then don’t bother with anything. In fact, what I always try to bring up is that everyone should try to find their own pace and their own gaming style. Just sometimes we (myself included) don’t realize there is another approach to things.
February 24th, 2011 at 6:24 pmQuote
I think that saying which part of the content is fun and which part of the content is grind doesn’t grasp the issue. Any part of the content that you find fun – if you do it enough, you will cease to enjoy doing it and be merely doing it for some X or Y. You can turn anything into grind.
When I played wow they opened a new battle ground and I actually really enjoyed it. Before I knew it I was at my token limit for that BG.
But it’d still be possible for me to start playing it not because I enjoy it, but because I want gear piece Z. And thus I’m not enjoying it anymore.
February 28th, 2011 at 7:14 pmQuote
Callan I think you are contradicting yourself here and just saying the same as me but with different words.
March 2nd, 2011 at 7:39 amEverything can be grind and everything can be fun. And each one has to find their own limits to things.
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@Callan S.
I was going to write a much longer response to your last two but to be honest, I shall simply point and say “What Sema said”. The one moment you are on the one side of the argument and the next you are on the other. I get the impression you are simply trolling really.
I would add though that I fnd it insulting that you play the “I care about your health” card because as an adult I know when I have had my fill of something and can quit when I want to. You would do well to concern yourself with your own health as mine is my own private matter, as is the health of other players their own.
“When I played wow they opened a new battle ground and I actually really enjoyed it. Before I knew it I was at my token limit for that BG.
But it’d still be possible for me to start playing it not because I enjoy it, but because I want gear piece Z. And thus I’m not enjoying it anymore.”
Usually, at that point an adult and mature player would stop playing or reasses his reasons for playing.
However, it does not detract from the fact that this was still a grind. Even when you liked doing it, you were still grinding, you simply did not care. But when you stop enjoying it the fact that you are grinding just becomes more obvious and thus the grinding more tedious.
March 9th, 2011 at 12:35 pmQuote