Hello,
In recent blog posts from Tobold and an MMOCRUNCH writer the subject of story has come up. My thoughts about story from any traditional RPG standpoint would be comparable to a terrific book that the player just started reading. These are details that we must plod through as our characters get fleshed out as we level ‘through’ the story.
However, in MMORPG’s I always felt as if storyline was an understatement. Or a backdrop if you will to my own set of experiences built from playing. Whether it be on a group, solo or raid level, I am interacting with others. My interpersonal experiences make much better memories than the what the game company could write for me.
As in EVE, the backstory of the game is an afterthought. “Oh, I can’t do any more caldari missions because it’ll ruin my Gallente standing”, would be the extent of the storyline impact on my character. If you read back some of the past announcements I spoke about on the show, you find far more interesting ‘dirt’ so to speak.
One thing I might add, even though Dragon Age:Origins has a converging main storyline, it has many choices of inter-character interaction. Each one of those multiple choice questions you answer has an impact on your story. Akin to TES:Oblivion as you have a main storyline and many offshoots or side quests as we call it, much like MMORPG’s. Although your choices rarely affected the fact that the Emporer (left) would die in the first few minutes of the game, and his son at the end of the main storyline. Those sidequests were great distractions and added plenty of replayability to the game.
Now heres a thought, what if we added that aspect to an MMORPG. Multiple choices in a common storyline for different outcomes and rewards. Add a possible PVP element and you might have more people paying attention to your choices other than “accept quest”, “finish quest” and “quit”. It’s just a thought.
I realize that Dragon Age: Origins has no place here other than it is built and
plays exactly like an MMORPG. The elements of the game: Stats, gear, combat and even the story has been giving me the “I wish this was online” feeling. I got that feeling from Fallout 3, another story driven game from Bethesda, the same company that made TES:Oblivion.
The truth on my experience with Fallout 3. I was into it for one week and grew extremely bored and stopped playing it. Oh, the storyline was great, as I heard from buddies that junked out of the game for weeks on end. However, it lacked one fundamental aspect: That interpersonal interaction that I was used to from playing MMORPG’s. I was spoiled.
Soon after that I was invited to the Fallen Earth beta. I thought that this was going to be answer to my prayers. Unfortunately, there is exactly zero story to Fallen Earth but the chat window provided enough drama to keep me interested.
One of the main draws of gaming is having people make interesting choices. If I am not immersed somewhat in my environment then the people become the catalysts to make those choices. If I do not have that then the game has a chance to enter what I call “Game Limbo”. Which is located on a shelf directly over my computer monitor.
For now neither Dragon Age: Origins and EVE have suffered that fate. EVE gives me 100% interpersonal connection, I am in a corp of great people and we are having a great time playing together. DA:O, on the other hand, is giving me one hell of a story so far. I am enjoying both, but if it was the other way around I wouldn’t play them.
Why? Because I am so done with the traditional sword and sorcery online game and it’s scary to be in outer space all alone; In space no one can hear you scream.
Play safe, Frank
PS: Callan, stats are not story, experiences make stories. The stats on that gear that you got is just a trophy but the 2 hour long fight to down the boss is the story. But I’m sure that most people couldn’t tell me why they were fighting that boss in the first place.
I don’t think the two hour boss fight is story, except like the story one gets from a sports match (which is not to dismiss sports match stories at all).
Outside of gamist play to win challenges, you can have moral challenges. Imagine this: There are two boats at sea. One is on fire. You are on the one that is safe. Do you stand and watch as the people on the other boat try and save their own lives? Or do you risk yours and head over?
Indeed, imagine this – you get the same XP if you stand or help out? “But standing still is doing nothing for XP!” No, it’s showing your character and how he would act…he’d just stay on the safe boat. It’s showing that, that gets the XP, rather than slaying fifty sewer rats.
Alot of games at the moment just have play to win story, and then a fixed non interactive story the authors of the game wrote. But THAT story can be interactive. Very interactive.
2 Callan: I guess we agree to disagree on this one. My standpoint of “natural” story-weaving holds true. A trip to Wal-mart can be an adventure if you take in the surroundings, the set, bit players with you as the hero. Play to win? Achievement stories can be found on many blogs around the net. Read a few. “The day I hit level 80” or “That time I escaped podding by pirates” are just to name a few good ones I read. I feel that todays mmo’s can learn from older games the aspect of storytelling. Do you really think that Final Fantasy became the franchise they currently are on just play-to-win mechanics?
That’s my story and I am sticking to it. Welcome to the site, constructive criticism is always welcome.
F
Eh, I hate the phrase agree to disagree. We already disagree – it doesn’t take us agreeing that is the case, for that to be the case. Agreeing not to jump on each other because we disagree, that I get but I’d normally assume is the default sort of understanding between people (but I’ll grant on the net that default tends to disappear and bears repeating).
Tell me more on your motivations and feelings about going to walmart, and you’ll find that it’s hard to keep thinking of it in terms of just being “natural story”. Or more precisely, you’ll find that apparently simple natural story actually has a complex underbed of morality and feelings. That’s something the movie clerks demonstrated.
If you want to call play to win stories the first and foremost type of story, okay. It can be. But I think you’d probably enjoy a game based on moral story as well. Your just not getting much opportunity to find out you’d enjoy that.
“Do you really think that Final Fantasy became the franchise they currently are on just play-to-win mechanics?”
Yes.
All there were once were passive movie and books. Then people got to fight little fights in between each page of a video game story. It was far more interaction than ever before!! Awesome!
Except I’d describe it as, having once been a paraplegic, suddenly being able to drag ones self slowly and painfully across the ground with one arm. Sure, tons better than being frozen in place. But it’s hardly the pinacle of ‘walking’.
Callan,
That phrase has helped me cut many a red wire and not the green. I believe in net neutrality, which I learned the hard way. It makes me more a reliable and credible writer.
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I understand how you might think the early FF titles are play to win. The natural urge to complete a project or finish a game is what drives us through the story. Propelled by our own desire to achieve that ultimate goal of (insert macguffin here) killing the (insert villain here) to save the (insert city/state/princess here). We spend hours sometimes literally dragging ourselves through a story. You get the point.
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But if you go to one of these conventions and you see someone dressed as Cloud or sephiroth is that still play to win mentality? Hardly, because they are not playing the game. They are acting out the part of their favorite character in (gasp) a stooorrryyyyyyy.
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I am glad to hear that you have recovered from being paraplegic. I would definitely say that is a win, congratulations. But I would very much like to hear your story of how you did it.
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Stories are simply descriptions of a sequence of events. I’d like to do the Walmart story here, but I don’t think it’s ‘ardcore mmorpg enough. I’ll try though to prove a point.
Dragon Age does a good job at telling a story and still keeping character developer very customizable. The latter is something rpgs as a whole (mmos and single player games) have been missing.
oh great awesome, thanks for ruining Oblivion for me.
As for story, It should always take 2nd place to gameplay (as that is how the story is both conveyed and how we enjoy the game) but it should never be as poor as Borderlands and it doesn’t need to be as strong as Dragon Age, A happy medium is acceptable and often fun.
Sorry, just to clarify on the paraplegic thing, that’s just an example – it’s not my own personal history, lol!!! I said it to compare how movies and books have you static and unable to do anything/make you a paraplegic, compared to a video game which allows some interaction by fighting between each turn of the storys pages. But it’s not much better than dragging oneself along the ground, even if it’s tons better than being frozen in place.
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Also, people dress up as Mario too. Look, if you find story in killing eight goblins then watching a cut scene, okay. It’s just that the average fantasy novel does better story than that by far.
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Tell me the name of some movies or books you like and I’ll point out how either they don’t use killing eight goblins at all as part of story, or how if there is killing of gobo’s or suchlike, it’s like 3% of the movies overall content. The stories you like – they don’t have little combats over and over and over, I bet.
2 Death1942: sorry, I was under an impression that everyone played it since it was released in 2006 and one of the best rpg’s ever created. It’s time to get involved! It’s cheap and two…err…1 expansion and a few dlc’s deep. I agree, but Borderlands is more like the shooter tagged with the new phrase, “with rpg elements”. I enjoy a happy medium too, depends on what genre I’m in the mood for.
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2 Callan: see, I fell for it. I am a sucker for a good story. And don’t mind a good debate. You still haven’t given a good reason why these new MMO’s skimp on story.
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Example: Lord of the rings? Tons of battles, good story. Such a good story that it has started a list of major motion pictures and expanded an already massive following. But those battles mattered, even in the online game the story held up. They even give you certain incentives to play the storyline quests for items and rewards.
That’s not what I’m saying. I say they have passive story. It’s like play consists of fight a battle, so you can turn to the next page of a book. Just because your interactive during the battle doesn’t mean when you watch the next cut scene, your any more interactive than when you read a normal book.
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I mean, when I say this, I assume you want to make your own story when you play, not just passively experience someone elses story. If you don’t, then I’m missplaced in presenting my arguement here, sorry ’bout that – hope it was an interesting read anyway :)
So a passive story would be the afterthought here, not engaging. That would be more active storytelling. yes, it was a great convo Callan. Stop by anytime.
F
Thanks and thanks for engaging in thoughtful discussion :)