Warhammer Online: Does RvR Need an Overhaul?

Since I reached Rank 40 a bit over 2 weeks ago, I’ve basically been doing nothing but RvR.  Keep sieges, Battlefield Objectives and so far two Fortress sieges.  I did do open RvR while I was working my way to rank 40, however I would say it only made up about 20% of my game time online.  Now that I’m doing nothing but RvR, the design flaws are becoming more apparent to me.  Lets get to it.

Flip Flopping Keeps

My biggest issue with RvR is that it’s setup in a way that Order and Destruction just take turns assulting each others keeps and BOs, flip flopping back and forth.   While I do enjoy defending, it seems most players would rather be attacking to get a chance at a loot bag.  So the few times I have tried defending, with what’s usually a small warband, we get steamrolled.  Mythic has taken steps recently to try to make defending more worth while, but from what I’ve seen so far it doesn’t appear to be enough.

Choke Points

The problem with the keeps and fortresses is that they all have impossibly difficult choke points.  Usually one staircase leading to the top floor.  Now I know from a fortress designers point of view this is the way to be most effective.  However if Mythic’s going to take that stance, then attackers should be able to fire catapults into the tower to blow it up.  It’s no where more ridiculous then when doing a fortress siege and you have 50 defenders all stacked up in front of the stairs at the top level.  There’s absolutely no chance to get through.  Those 50 people could stop 200 attackers.  Keeps need to be redesigned, there way too small and the choke points are ridiculous.

Zone Locking, Timelimits & Resets

In open RvR, once you have locked all 3 zones, you can then assault the other teams Fortress.  My problem with zone locking is it shouldn’t reset, not until the other team comes and takes their keep/fortress back.  I’m not sure the exact time limit, but once all 3 zones become locked you have 1 or 2 hrs to sack the Fortress, which just seems incredibly stupid to me.  I not only don’t understand why there is a limit, but I hate the fact that everything resets afterwards if the attackers fail.  If Mythic wants epic sieges, just think how epic it would be if your sides Fortress has been sieged for 3 days straight and you are finally able to drive them out.  Or if you’re on the other side, how exciting it would be if you’re there when the fortress finally fell.  You wouldn’t be sitting there saying “I hope I have enough participation points to get a loot back” no, you would be setting off your fireworks celebrating.  I won’t go any farther then that cause City Sieges have yet to be implemented.

My Overhaul

The way I think zone locking should work is sorta like a tug-o-war.   Lets say everything is neutral and there are 3 zones.  Each side should only be able to start out locking the zone nearest their capital city.  Once those 2 zones are locked by their respective side, they battle for the middle zone. Once a winner emerges the newly claimed zone is locked for 24 hrs and the winners below zone is locked indefinitely.  The winners can then assault the next zone.  If they cannot claim it within 24 hrs, nothing is reset, however the middle zone will unlock.  If they can claim the 3rd zone, then it becomes locked for 24 hrs and the two below it become locked indefinitely.   Now that all 3 zones are locked, the winners would get 24 hrs minimum to sack the fortress.  After the 24 hrs, the top most zone will unlock, making the attackers have to defend that zone if they wish to continue the attack on the fortress.  If a keep in the top most zone is lost then the fortress siege ends and the below zone also unlocks.  Making it now 2 zones that are attackable and giving the defenders a chance to try to swing it back the other way.  Did I lose anyone? No!?  Good.

This scenario slows down RvR battles significantly, eliminating the constant zone and keep flip flopping.  Instead it creates an atmosphere where players would feel a greater sense of accomplishment and spend less time worrying about if there going to get a damn loot bag or not.  I want it so that each side has to fight tooth and nail to maintain their lands, which is definitely not the case currently.

I’m not the type of player that wants to do the same runs over and over again.  I want to be working towards a goal that’s challenging and right now Warhammer is making me feel that most of my time online is kinda pointless since everything is so easily accomplished.  Ok Fortress sieges aren’t easy, but only because of server crashes, time limits, and ridiculous choke points.  I do think Mytic is taking steps in the right direction in dealing with RvR, so hopefully it only gets better from here on out.


  1. You are finally starting to see what my guild did a little over a month ago. I’m sure the Warhammer fans will be here in a few minutes like they did with me.

    Anyone who is objective and has experienced the endgame will see there are some fundamental problems with the games design. Keep swapping among other things really leads to an endgame that really doesn’t deliver and leaves people bored.

    People will always take the path of least resistance to get stronger, so keep trading seems to be the thing. You know something is wrong with the system when it is actually better for the defender to not show up to defend then to fight and risk giving the other team points.

    I also think the incentive is lacking as well. Compare the realm rewards with those found in DAOC. DAOC offered real powers that were interesting and drove you to want to reach them, WAR offers minor passive upgrades that are hardly noticeable.

    Mythic knows they are in trouble and has been scrambling to try and do “something”, I just don’t know if their head is in the right spot. There is a really good reason why many of their servers are drying up in population. Excessive crowd control has made Tier 4 RvR a lot less fun then the lower tiers.

  2. I was about to post a compliment on a well thought out and even handed article/opinion which was a pleasure to read and free of the usual Paragus foaming mouthed inane ranting/whining…but then I see he got the first comment in in his usual ‘omg this game sucks’ style…….

    I agree that the defenders have a massively stacked advantage with the design of the Keeps as is. I’d recommend either having more than one staircase up the ramps or allowed the KL and Champs to be pulled further down the ramp thus forcing the Defender to be more mobile in defence rather than farming RP’s on the stairs.

  3. When it comes to end game in WAR it is simply not fun. They need to do some major overhauling to fix the issues. I gave AoC their chance to show me PvP and they failed. Then I gave WAR a chance to show me some true PvP, and they give me instances. It’s time to move on to Darkfall, they checked the hardware on their servers and they can handle massive amounts of people. Good luck WAR people I hope Paul Barnett keeps you hypnotized with his bullshit for awhile!

  4. Now, you complained about getting rolled on defense AND about the chokepoints being impassible when defended. You’ll have to pardon me if my first thought was that you just might not have a solid understanding of that whole “defending the keep” thing… ;)

    Design can anticipate player behaviour and influence player behaviour but it can’t enforce player behaviour. Players will always prefer to attack. It’s more dynamic, and it’s on the player’s schedule. The best your design is going to do is make it possible for that small warband to hold against the larger number of attackers, and give them a hefty enough reward that they feel it was a worthwhile effort.

    As to the comment on city siege not being implemented… I think that’s just not true.

  5. Well, I canceled because in part of the reasons you mention and the overall feel of WAR. There is no community. I think that looting a Keep Lord shows how the Marketing is in charge of the game design.

    We didn’t want gear grinding, we wanted RVR. Give us relics! Give us active RVR abilities like someone commented before. That will get people to show up. I know I did back in the DAoC days. Now Darkness Falls was a gear grind, but the fun was clearing it out when you got it.

    If they focused on community RVR, not gear grinding. If they bite the bullet and merge more servers. I might consider.

    But WAR was released too early and I’m tired of being a paying test subject maybe they can pull it together in the coming months. Too early? still missing classes, no meaningful crafting or economy, etc…

  6. Dread, the only one foaming at the mouth are people who refuse to be objective about the game. I give Mythic a lot of credit my articles where it is due, I welcome you to go back and read them. My opinion is just that, an opinion. We can agree to disagree and that’s fine, but instead of name calling, you should try to speak to the points I bring up because they are valid and I think you know it.

    Back to the issue at hand, here is what I truly think will need to happen for Mythic to turn this thing around. The realm awards need to be completely gone over and changed from trivial passive abilities to something desirable.

    Mythic will need to do a “New Frontier” like they did with DAOC. this will be a complete redesign of their forts instead of the copy and paste job they are using now.

    The crowd control needs to be slashed drastically, currently there 177 unique class abilities in the game that crowd control people in Tier 4.

    The PvE component and public quests needs to be completely removed from the zone locking mechanism and has to be completely rethought out from top to bottom.

    Scenarios should have little to no value in the zone control mechanic, and the renown gained in them needs to be reduced or eliminated.

    I welcome you or any of the other WAR fanatics to challenge me on any of these points. I have experienced far more in this game than most people have, and I have watched the top guilds on the most populated server dissolve away into nothing. Warhammer needs people to be successful, and flaming critics of the game is only going to make the WAR community look like the retarded stepchild of WoW.

  7. So am I the only one who feels this game would be done if Mythic just dropped the classes and combat mechanics into DAoC? It seems like everything missing from WAR exists in DAoC.

  8. Warhammer’s out look on its own game is just going in circles they use band aids to fix something that needs major surgery.

    The CC is out of control but who cares about that lets talk about. Why should i play the game ? Were is the fun in it for me after tier 3 ?

    You get into the end game and you are doing exactly what you started doing since the game launched. Take a keep tag your it then they take it back.

    Keep tag that is basically it, is that FUN ? Hell NO! its a waste of time..

    I play my azz off for a week to take zones to get a shot at a fortress what do i get…? 2 hours take a fortress what a fcking joke!

    Open RVR? Keep sieges? Redundent as Hell! Same shit everyday I can get that in real life why do i need to pay for it?

    I am really upset at this game and how much hype they put into it.. I dragged my entire guild to this game just for all to quit it in 3 months after playing..

    80 people complaining to me about the lack of Fun this game was.. Scenerios ruined this game.. Public Quests yea right you and maybe one other Person..

    There is not enough people on these servers to have any epic battles, and when you do start seeing some actions its the same 80 people over and over..

    You want to make this game successful… Give me DAOC with these graphics.. Give me Relics and powers for taking those relics.. Give me Battle grounds that are instanced with a Big keep to fight over… How hard is this to do .. GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT … DAOC PERIOD..


  9. i just(as im typing this) got warhammer and i read all the comments. Its a sad thing that they are having so many problems, but think….. They wanted to make an MMORPG that was VERY different from anything out there. Ive played them all.. I think they can fix this and it could be THE BEST MMO out there.and if you would just think for a minute.. WOW , BORING!!!!!!!! wow as in world of warcraft, its all quest, now i know must people love to kill 5 animals collect 10 items and kill a boss, but cmon.give them a chance i think they can do it its not as easy to make a GAME as people think. my point: every game went through this every game needs major work, bottom line they all improved.

  10. Some observations from a lowly trial player (but WoW veteran).

    1) (Bright Wizard) Rank 1-10 RvR is boring, repetitive, suffers from a serious lack of depth, does not reflect personal skill, and gives me the overwhelming impression that I’m an overpowered cannon that spams Fiery Blast for hours on end (that is, until a single melee character attacks me, from which I have absolutely zero CC to defend myself with).

    2) The best part of WAR, a “PvP” game, is in fact its PvE content. Public Quests are simply genius. Unfortunately, the shiny gear I work hard for in PQs is useless in the crap that is also known as RvR.

    3) As much as I would like to see WoW dethroned, it is consistently better in almost every category, especially:
    Intense, skillful, tactical 1v1 combat that MAKES LARGE SCALE PvP SO ENTERTAINING (Pay attention Mythic; a solid 1v1 game is the foundation for entertaining RvR.)

    Mythic needs to admit that its RvR philosophy is not only flawed, but BROKEN and needs to be overhauled if it is to survive in the MMO market for more than a year.

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